Blog Post

Canonical shut down Sounder?

NO THEY DIDN’T!

It seems a story is making its way around the various Linux news organizations that is blatantly misrepresented. THIS STORY is the one making its rounds. It claims that Canonical takes another step against the Community. This is totally wrong in every sense of the word wrong. Let me break it down for those of you who actually believe this on the shut-down of the Sounder Mailing List.

The Community Council voted, unanimously I might add, to close down the Sounder. Here are the current members of the Community Council:

  • Alan Pope
  • Benjamin Mako Hill
  • Daniel Holbach
  • Elizabeth Krumbach
  • Emmet Hikory
  • Mark Shuttleworth
  • Matthew East
  • Mike Basinger

Those names which are in BOLD LETTERS are members of the Community Council who are NOT employed by Canonical. So that is 6 out of 8 members, or 75%.

So, to make sure people like the Anthony Papillion, aka the Cajun Techie, understand this, CANONICAL DID NOT SHUT DOWN THE SOUNDER, THE COMMUNITY DID!. This was an issue back in 2009 when I was on the Community Council, and my opinion then is that it should have been shut down, as I never saw the service it provided or any good in it whatsoever. There are other channels of free speech, and I thought the Sounder was useless then. Good riddance it is finally gone.

EDIT: I just changed Emmet to a Canonical employee, so that is now 5 out of 8 members are not Canonical employees, or 62.5%.

EDIT: I changed Emmet back to a non-Canonical employee, so it is back to the original 6 out of 8, or 75%.

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  • Akshat Jain

    Thanks, this clears the FUD.

  • Aoirthoir An Broc

    “CANONICAL DID NOT SHUT DOWN THE SOUNDER, THE COMMUNITY DID!.”

    Actually the Community Council did. They are hardly the community. Though they are not the community, they are also not Canonical. Frankly I’m getting irritated at all of these anti-Canonical claims that are being made. So thanks for clearing this latest fiasco up.

  • I am not saying “everyone” but “most” of the people screaming over the closure have not followed up with the whole discussion or never ever tasted the horrible community called “sounders”. It was a fine example of “how not a community should be”

    • I’d agree with you. If these people cared about their list they would have followed some simple rules – be considerate and respectful – and made it into a worthwhile community.

      Was closing it the correct thing to do? I guess amputation is one way to cure a problem.

      • Aoirthoir An Broc

        Yeah, I’m never really comfortable with telling people if they think or feel this way or that then they should act in such and such a fashion. There’s about Seven Billion of us on the planet now and each of us acts in a different fashion.

        As my commentary in the past has explained, there really is no way to be respectful when the mere act of informing is seen as disrespectful. I’ve explained to persons how using certain pejoratives is harmful to entire communities even when the person you’re using to insult with the pejorative is not a member of the marginalized group. In each and every instance I’ve been accused of being disrespectful to the person using the pejorative.

        Just the other day I read a commentary where the writer insisted that NOT looking persons in the eye was disrespectful. This writer was perhaps uninformed about the great many cultures wherein LOOKING someone in the eye is considered disrespectful. In my own experience I’ve always associated that kind of talk with cruel authoritarianism (to wit… “You will look me in the eye when I talk to you! Do you hear me young man!”).

        I’ve never viewed persons expressing their disastisfaction with me as disrespectful. I am under no obligation to change to meet their viewpoint and they are under no obligation to refrain from informing others of how they feel. What I do consider disrespectful is when persons tell me what I feel or think, or how I would act if I felt or thought a certain way.

        But chances are you won’t feel that your having just done so is disrespectful. So then why should Sounders feel their expressions are disrespectful just because you say so?

        • It took you 5 paragraphs to explains something which is nothing but an excuse to the rude behavior prevalent in sounders.

          Just think, all other channels also have people from various backgrounds and culture, then why isn’t those channels a mess like sounders?

          You are just hiding a big FAIL called sounders behind an excuse called “cultural differences”

          • Aoirthoir An Broc

            “It took you 5 paragraphs to”

            Argumentum ad TL;DRum? The amount of words a person writes are irrelevant to the validity of those words.

            “explains something which is nothing but an excuse to the rude behavior prevalent in sounders.”

            Let’s presume that the emailings on the list and in the chat channels are indeed rude. I’m not even going to dispute that. My position has always been that like it or lump it, a person gets to speak. Since the channels are exitable, and so are the emailing lists, those that join and stay, do so of their own free will. They don’t need to be protected from a Kangaroo Court that always has and likely always will decide in its own favor.

            “Just think, all other channels also have people from various backgrounds and culture, then why isn’t those channels a mess like sounders?”

            Sorry but a lot of the channels are a mess.

            “You are just hiding a big FAIL called sounders behind an excuse called ‘cultural differences'”

            Sounders wasn’t hidden. I’m not hidden. My position in regards to Sounders isn’t hidden. My position in regards to cutting Sounders off isn’t hidden. Nor did I say that the issues persons had with Sounders were cultural.

            The only way this can be a fail is if we’ve arrived at a point wherein I’m not entitled to have my own opinion in regards to this or other messy affairs of Ubuntu and the Community Kangaroo Council. Except, that’s exactly the culture of Ubuntu. So yes, I can see how from your perspective, it’s a fail.

            For my part, I will always side with those who are being told they cannot speak, even when I dislike them.

          • It’s not about relevancy. It’s about making a incomprehensible tl;dr reply.

            > a person gets to speak
            A person gets to speak is not an excuse. Even murders threaten/. So that becomes right. I am not comparing sounders to murders, just making a point that you cannot wrap everything under “they have a right to speak”. Under an Ubuntu umbrella, you *have* to follow the Code of Conduct. If you don’t then this is what happens – list get shut down.

            > Sorry but a lot of the channels are a mess.
            None of them is as big fail as sounders.

            You are being hypocritic. If you think that I am saying “don’t voice your opinion”, then with what face you are trying to make me shut? I never said you to shut up. You can speak till the end of time. You should know the basic difference between “debate” and “trying to silence someone”. If you don’t have enough guts to debate, don’t bring up the bullshit named “suppression of speech”.

          • Aoirthoir An Broc

            “It’s not about relevancy. It’s about making a incomprehensible tl;dr reply.”

            Who was unable to comprehend what I wrote?

            ‘A person gets to speak is not an excuse. Even murders threaten/.”

            Godwin’s Law.

            “So that becomes right. I am not comparing sounders to murders,”

            You just did.

            “just making a point that you cannot wrap everything under ‘they have a right to speak’.”

            Yes I can. I get to say that anyone gets to disagree with me under any circumstances. Even when I think they are wrong.

            “Under an Ubuntu umbrella, you *have* to follow the Code of Conduct.”

            No I don’t. I never signed that ridiculous KCED (Kangaroo Court Entrapment Document).

            “If you don’t then this is what happens – list get shut down.”

            Really? Cause I’ve never been shut down and there are a whole lot of people who don’t like me. I dont follow your KCED, I don’t say things that people like. The difference of course is, that I’ve not let you, or any of your cohorts have authority over me. Sounds shouldn’t have either. Now, they are free to say what they want without your ridiculous rules.

            “> Sorry but a lot of the channels are a mess.
            None of them is as big fail as sounders.”

            If you are able-bodied, neuro-typical, belong to the proper class and willing to be led with a nose piercing, then you might be right. Considering the amount of ableism and ageism (just to name two) that goes on in the channels, uh yeah, they are as big fails as Sounders. But in this case the groups being marginalized don’t matter to many folks.

            “You are being hypocritic.”

            A hypocritic is someone that attempts to enforce a set of rules on others, while she herself doesn’t follow them.

            “If you think that I am saying ‘don’t voice your opinion’,”

            Didn’t claim you were saying that.

            “then with what face you are trying to make me shut?”

            You are saying this, not me. I’ve said hundreds of times, even when I disagree with folks, they not only should be allowed to speak up without interference, but they SHOULD speak up. My disagreeing with your conclusions is not the same as my saying you should not speak your conclusions.

            “I never said you to shut up.”

            Never said you did.

            “You can speak till the end of time.”

            Considering I am the sole Aoirthoir of the Age of Aquarius, in this you speak truth.

            “You should know the basic difference between ‘debate’ and ‘trying to silence someone’.”

            I do. You and I are debating. The “Community” Kangaroo Court on the other hand is attempting to silence Sounders. If I were Sounders I would create my own list entirely separate from Ubuntu and I would head over to a chat network that respects my right to be disagreeable.

            “If you don’t have enough guts to debate, don’t bring up the bullshit named ‘suppression of speech’.”

            Once again this is something you’ve claimed I claimed, that I never claimed.

          • ” Who was unable to comprehend what I wrote?”
            I am sure many. Reason – Check both of your comments. they are so huge!!

            ” No I don’t. I never signed that ridiculous KCED (Kangaroo Court Entrapment Document).”
            Doesn’t matter, you still have to follow it in lists and IRC
            http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists
            Quoting
            “The Ubuntu Code of Conduct governs all interaction within the Ubuntu community. Because mailing lists form an integral part of that interaction, it is especially important to bear the Code of Conduct in mind at all times. Mailing list users should read the Code of Conduct in full, and if possible, should digitally sign a copy .”

            “If I were Sounders I would create my own list entirely separate from Ubuntu and I would head over to a chat network that respects my right to be disagreeable.”
            And also make a rule that it can be as messy as sounders

          • Aoirthoir An Broc

            In reply to your answers below:

            “‘Who was unable to comprehend what I wrote?’

            I am sure many.”

            Uh huh. Well I never thought of it that way. Since you said it is true, well it just must be true.

            “Reason – Check both of your comments. they are so huge!!”

            Actually those are tiny comments of mine. But, I suppose based on this reasoning persons cannot understand documents like War and Peace, The Holy Biblia, The Noble Qu’ran or Calvin and Hobbes Year 10.

            “‘No I don’t. I never signed that ridiculous KCED (Kangaroo Court Entrapment Document).’

            Doesn’t matter, you still have to follow it in lists and IRC”

            No I don’t. I’ve been on dozens of lists and in hundreds of IRC chat channels. None of us follow the KCED. Perhaps you missed the part where I don’t cowtow to your false authority over me.

            “http://www.ubuntu.com/support/…
            Quoting
            ‘The Ubuntu Code of Conduct governs all interaction within the Ubuntu community…'”

            No it doesn’t. I’ve got news for you that I know is hard to swallow, but many persons in the Ubuntu “community” have nothing to do with ubuntu.com sites. There are blogs, chat rooms, facebook pages, twitter accounts, websites, companies, teachers, meetups, private groups and more that deal with Ubuntu. The vast majority of which are not “governed” at all by your KCED. There is a great big world of Ubuntu out there outside of ubuntu.com, Canonical, and the Kangaroo “Community” Council.

            “‘…Because mailing lists form an integral part of that interaction, it is especially important to bear the Code of Conduct in mind at all times. Mailing list users should read the Code of Conduct in full, and if possible, should digitally sign a copy .'”

            Right. Except this of course contradicts what I was told in a recent post that there are a LOT of ways to contribute to Ubuntu directly (including via forums, mailing lists and so on) WITHOUT signing the KCED. The KCED does NOT govern my actions, nor will it ever. Despite efforts to force those of us who have not signed it, to be “adjudged” as if we had.

            Understand this, I neither consent nor assent to your rule over me. PERIOD.

            “‘If I were Sounders I would create my own list entirely separate from Ubuntu and I would head over to a chat network that respects my right to be disagreeable.’

            And also make a rule that it can be as messy as Sounders”

            Yeah sure. Why not? This idea that we all have to agree all of the time is contrary to all of human nature. There are SEVEN BILLION of you humans on my planet. Chances are, that there are going to be disagreements, even when multiple parties are right. So that’s messy. Why should it bother us that things are messy when that is the nature of life?

          • “Right. Except this of course contradicts what I was told in a recent post that there are a LOT of ways to contribute to Ubuntu directly (including via forums, mailing lists and so on) WITHOUT signing the KCED. The KCED does NOT govern my actions, nor will it ever. Despite efforts to force those of us who have not signed it, to be “adjudged” as if we had.

            Understand this, I neither consent nor assent to your rule over me. PERIOD.”

            You fail to understand what it means. Signing the CoC digitially gives you access to many more features. Examples you can create PPAs etc

            Even if you didn’t sign the CoC, still all the infrastructure related to Ubuntu is governed as per CoC. When you enter a different country, you are expected to abide by the rules even if you didn’t sign any papers.

            Rule? You are taking it too far. You go to a country, do some shit and then claim that the government has no power to rule over you. The mailing list, IRC channel is governed by CoC and CC is responsible for taking care that CoC is followed.

            When you are signing to sounder there is a notice
            “Subscribe to sounder by filling out the following form. Please respect the Ubuntu Code of Conduct when posting to this list.”
            That moment you agreed to abide by CoC. Now if you don’t CC has a right to throw you out.

          • Aoirthoir An Broc

            In reply to your answers below:

            “You fail to understand what it means.”

            You demonstrate the incredibly offensive habit of Ubunteros to tell others what we think, feel, know or understand. I understand FULLY your ridiculous position in regards to the KCED.

            “Signing the CoC digitially gives you access to many more features. Examples you can create PPAs etc”

            Nope. I was told you could create PPAs without signing the CoC.

            “Even if you didn’t sign the CoC, still all the infrastructure related to Ubuntu is governed as per CoC.”

            Nope. There is a HELUVALOTTA infrastructure outside of your group. For instance I teach freely and for pay. Your KCED doesn’t govern me or my students. I install Ubuntu. Your KCED doesn’t govern that. I write about Ubuntu, your KCED and Kangaroo “Community” Council doesn’t govern that.

            “When you enter a different country, you are expected to abide by the rules even if you didn’t sign any papers.”

            When you build a rocket ship you need 300 tons of metal. When you make a cheesecake you need 3oz’s of barley. So? Neither of these is comparable to contributing to Ubuntu and neither is entering another country.

            “Rule? You are taking it too far. You go to a country, do some shit and then claim that the government has no power to rule over you. The mailing list, IRC channel is governed by CoC and CC is responsible for taking care that CoC is followed.”

            Nope. How many different ways do I have to say that there are IRC channels and mailing lists OUTSIDE of your petty, ridiculous controls? I have my own mailing lists, you have no control over that. I run my own IRC Channels, you have no control over that. I know it might be bothersome to some that most of us are outside of your petty controls.. Too bad.

            “When you are signing to sounder there is a notice
            ‘Subscribe to sounder by filling out the following form. Please respect the Ubuntu Code of Conduct when posting to this list.’

            Nope. Sounders is shut down, remember. Now they can do what they want, if they choose to do so, outside of your slef proclaimed and false authority.

            “That moment you agreed to abide by CoC. Now if you don’t CC has a right to throw you out.”

            I never agreed to anything. I’m not a Sounder. Even if I were a Sounder, unless I signed the KCED, I’ve not AGREED to abide by it. I neither consent nor accede to your controls. Your saying that I have, when I have not, doesn’t change this FACT.

            This presumptious attitude is exactly why I refuse to sign it. Ubuntu’s elite, judgemental, self appointed and false authorities have now moved to be adjuticators not just of those who have AGREED to allow them to do so, but every single one of us who have EXPLICITLY REFUSED their ONEROUS controls. But it doesn’t work as simply as that. Your SAYING you have authority over me, DOES NOT GIVE YOU AUTHORITY OVER ME. Period.

            Talk to someone who is deceived enough by your rhetoric and lies to abide your ridiculously false assertions.

          • “Nope. I was told you could create PPAs without signing the CoC. ”
            Who told you? You were probably fooled by someone. Why don’t you go and verify it yourself?

            “Nope. There is a HELUVALOTTA infrastructure outside of your group. For instance I teach freely and for pay.”
            CoC is not valid there, only within Ubuntu infrastructure. List IRC and mailing lists. It doesn’t govern your day to day life. Again you mis-understood things. I clearly said IRC and mailing-lists – “still all the infrastructure related to Ubuntu is governed as per CoC.”

            “How many different ways do I have to say that there are IRC channels and mailing lists OUTSIDE of your petty, ridiculous controls?”
            And how many times do I have to tell you the same thing again and again and again that CoC applied only to your Ubuntu activities and not outside. You can do whatever you want outside ubuntu infrastructure. No one give a shit.

            “I never agreed to anything. I’m not a Sounder. Even if I were a Sounder, unless I signed the KCED, I’ve not AGREED to abide by it.”
            This is not for you. This is for anyone who subscribed to sounder. If you didn’t you are not under CoC, if you subscribed you are under CoC.

            “Your SAYING you have authority over me, DOES NOT GIVE YOU AUTHORITY OVER ME. Period.”
            Every IRC channel and mailing lists have rules. this is same for even gnome/kde/debian etc all FOSS projects. Every major communication channel sets it’s rules of how you should behave which varies. When you go there or use their services, you are bound by their rules. They don’t claim they rule on you. You yourself agree by using their services.

            Lastly, stop confusing again./ I am saying last time. CoC applies only within ubuntu infrastructure. CoC applies only within ubuntu infrastructure. CoC applies only within ubuntu infrastructure. I said it 3 times. Now don;t say that you were asked to follow CoC outside Ubuntu. That didnt happen. Sounder is within ubuntu infrastructure and is governed by CoC

        • You say that it is disrespectful to tell someone how they feel or think yet you close by doing exactly that! And who are Sounders anyway? The Ubuntu community, subscribers of the Sounder list, or an elite group? Certainly, many of those who posted on the list were poor ambassadors of Ubuntu and the Open Source community.

          • Aoirthoir An Broc

            “You say that it is disrespectful to tell someone how they feel or think yet you close by doing exactly that! ”

            Actually I said I am uncomfortable with telling people how they think or feel. I personally dislike it when people do tell me what I think or feel and I try with great conviction to avoid doing the same to others. However, there are likely times I miss the mark and I need adjustment. With that in mind, I reviewed my comments to see where I had done that. I could not find anyplace. So, if you would be kind enough to point out the place I did, then I can watch myself in the future and adjust my writing.

            What I did say in regards to something disrespectful was:

            “there really is no way to be respectful when the mere act of informing is seen as disrespectful.”

            So it’s not me saying others are being disrespectful. Rather, it is that when I tell someone using certain pejoratives is hurtful, those persons almost always tell me I am being disrespectful to them by merely explaining that pejoratives are hurtful.

          • Aoirthoir An Broc

            “many of those who posted on the list were poor ambassadors of Ubuntu and the Open Source community.”

            So? There are a lot of persons who write things that I dislike. My opinion is irrelevant. They should still be able to write. Many of the people that voted against Sounders are just as poor ambassadors. Many of those same persons have insisted that we’re only to speak in “family friendly” terms and then I’ve watched them use words that are considered more foul than the words they were chastising others for using. Because those persons have driven quite a few away from Ubuntu, should they not be allowed to write? NO! They should be allowed to express their frustration and frankly so should Sounders.

      • I think if you find a list where there is lots of mess and far away from any resonable standards of “civil community” then what can you do?
        1) Request everyone to change. Be respectful
        2) Close down the list

        If 1 does not work, then? You have to choose 2

  • I’m a former member of Sounder and I’m sorry but you’re wrong about the who was responsible for its closure. We were also misled on which date the subject of the closure would be brought up in the Community Council meeting, thus none of us were present to speak on behalf of the list. What was done was underhanded and unethical. The closing of Sounder was a political decision, and it has cost the Community Council and Canonical a lot of credibility and supporters. I was there, I saw what happened, your explanation isn’t the truth.

    • Aoirthoir An Broc

      “…it has cost the Community Council and Canonical a lot of credibility…”

      What credibility did they lose? To lose credibility you have to HAVE credibility. I don’t doubt that it was a politically motivated decision. I just personally doubt Canonical itself is the cause. The Community Council has demonstrated itself for far too long to be an institution of dis-repute. Canonical’s not going to make them worse than they already are.

    • Aoirthoir An Broc

      On the upside, now this places you and the rest of the Sounders in control of your own chats, email and so on. A great many of us went to MIBBIT after it became clear that even talking about Ubuntu would be cause for shutting down channels on Freenode if the channel wasn’t “approved”.

      So just start your own email lists and channels, and be glad you’re out from under the fake control of a ridiculously run “council”.

    • Please explain how I am wrong. I was there, I have subscribed to sounder since the day it was created. I have read all of the threads, of which a majority were trash at best

      • Aoirthoir An Broc

        Yeah I’d like to know also.

        Regardless of whether Canonical was involved or not, if Sounders were given the wrong date for the “fair and non-biased” hearing, that’s a pretty big concern. But you know, it’s not like if they WERE there and WERE able to “explain themselves” it would have mattered two hoots. Has a Community Council meeting ever found against the elite or against the clique?

    • rww

      As I understand it from reading through sounder@ recently, y’all have some sort of fixation on Alan Pope. Alan is a member of the Community Council and not a Canonical employee, so even within your own silly view of the situation, this is a Community Council action and not a Canonical one.

  • One error, Emmet works for Canonical.

    • Yeah, I can’t figure him out half the time, and he doesn’t have Canonical on his LP page. Will update post, thanks for letting me know homeskillet!

    • Persia

      Err, no I don’t. I work for http://pinnacle-consulting.jp/en/

      • That’s what I thought, or at least remember.

  • It’d be nice if you just removed the bloody troll comments. Accurate summary though, but it’s no fun if they can’t write a bitchy rant about how Canonical sucks. Always easier to just lie to get headlines.

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  • Aoirthoir An Broc

    My response to Manish Sinha’s latest comments:

    “‘Nope. I was told you could create PPAs without signing the CoC. ‘
    Who told you? You were probably fooled by someone.”

    You mean DECEIVED by someone? Kind of like how Sounders claim they were deceived about the date of their Kangaroo hearing? Considering the nature of so many of you Ubuntu control graspers, I’d not put it past you.

    “Why don’t you go and verify it yourself?”

    Why should I when my teams can just create .deb files and be done with it?

    “‘Nope. There is a HELUVALOTTA infrastructure outside of your group. For instance I teach freely and for pay.’
    CoC is not valid there,”

    Damned right it’s not.

    “only within Ubuntu infrastructure. List IRC and mailing lists.”

    Not even there. If I *have* to follow it there, then they would not keep insisting I should sign it.

    “It doesn’t govern your day to day life.”

    Right. Cause I’ve not signed it. Now, once I sign it, then I have to deal, as so many others have, of being called to the carpet for things I write on Facebook, on my own personal blog, in personal emails to friends. So yeah for me it doesn’t govern ANYTHING about me, most certainly not my day to day life. For those that have signed it, they can look forward to everything they do being adjudicated. NO THANK YOU!

    “Again you mis-understood things.”

    Sigh. Again you take the tack you Ubunteros are notorious for of telling other people what they think. The only one who knows what I understand or misunderstand is me. I’ll thank you kindly to STOP TELLING ME what I think.

    “I clearly said IRC and mailing-lists – ”

    Yeah and I said clearly a number of times that there are IRC channels and mailing lists outside the control of petty people.

    “‘still all the infrastructure related to Ubuntu is governed as per CoC.’

    Nope. If I sign into a forum, and I’ve not signed the KCED, then it does NOT apply to me. I’ve never signed it and I never will sign it. PERIOD. Further those that “govern” by it do not ACTUALLY govern by it. The KCED does not say things like “use family friendly language” or “don’t swear” or “don’t be Republican” or “don’t be conservative Christian”. But plenty of the time people will make such claims, complaining about some innocuous activity of another, shouting vehmently that the KCED says NOT to do such and such a thing, when it DOES NOT. Then those same persons whinging for instance about swearing, will turn around and in public channels swear themselves. All the KCED does is give those that wish to control others a mechanism to do so.

    “‘How many different ways do I have to say that there are IRC channels and mailing lists OUTSIDE of your petty, ridiculous controls?’

    And how many times do I have to tell you the same thing again and again and again that CoC applied only to your Ubuntu activities and not outside.”

    NO IT DOES NOT apply to MY Ubuntu activities. I’ve NEVER signed it and I NEVER will. I teach WHOLLY outside of your structures. I write, I mentor, I moderate, I fix, I give support, ALL outside of your ridiculous “tell other people what they think, feel and do” social controls.

    “You can do whatever you want outside ubuntu infrastructure. No one give a shit.”

    Right, that’s why Ubunteros keep trying to chastise my activities, cause they don’t give a shit.

    “‘I never agreed to anything. I’m not a Sounder. Even if I were a Sounder, unless I signed the KCED, I’ve not AGREED to abide by it.’

    This is not for you. This is for anyone who subscribed to sounder. If you didn’t you are not under CoC, if you subscribed you are under CoC.”

    NO I would NOT be subscribed under the KCED. For the KCED to apply to me, I HAVE to AGREE to it. I don’t. EVEN if I had signed up for Sounders, the KCED is something I would not agree to.

    “‘Your SAYING you have authority over me, DOES NOT GIVE YOU AUTHORITY OVER ME. Period.’

    Every IRC channel and mailing lists have rules.”

    No they don’t. For instance in my IRC channels, EVERYONE that enters gets ops. That’s not a rule. No one is chastised if they forget to op someone that just came in. It’s a CULTURE. That culture says “we trust you”, “you are a valid human being,” “your thoughts matter,” and “we trust that YOU are capable of ignoring anyone who you dislike reading.” See, there’s no need for me to control what others in my channels hear. If they don’t like what someone is saying, POINT, CLICK, IGNORED. It’s really that easy. I know surprising to those that have seen the intense effort to silence the voices that others dislike so that NO ONE can hear them. But our methods have worked this way for years, WITH NOT A SINGLE ISSUE.

    “this is same for even gnome/kde/debian etc all FOSS projects. Every major communication channel sets it’s rules of how you should behave which varies. When you go there or use their services, you are bound by their rules. They don’t claim they rule on you. You yourself agree by using their services.”

    It’s not the same. Most of the time the rules in question are EXPLICIT. If the KCED said “NO swearing, NO this, NO that” and EXPLICITLY stated what it was disapproving, then I might agree with it. But it is VAGUE with an almost deliberate intention. This allows the Kangaroo Community Council to chastise those they don’t like while NEVER ONCE finding against themselves or folks they like. If the KCED were EXPLICIT like the rules of other sources, then they’d not be able to run around swearing themselves, while at the same time censuring others who also swear. (Swearing is just one example).

    “Lastly, stop confusing again./ I am saying last time. CoC applies only within ubuntu infrastructure.”

    No actually you are saying this for the first time.

    “CoC applies only within ubuntu infrastructure.”

    And here a second time.

    “CoC applies only within ubuntu infrastructure.”

    And here a third time.

    “I said it 3 times.”

    Finally a truth.

    “Now don;t say that you were asked to follow CoC outside Ubuntu.”

    I’ve never been asked to follow it, just sign it. I won’t.

    “That didnt happen.”

    Right, because I didn’t sign the KCED. But if I ever did you can bet your mother’s right elbow that they’d be crawling out of the woodwork with KCED complaints against me for thinsg I’ve posted IN MY PRIVATE SPACE. It HAS ALREADY HAPPENED TO OTHERS.

    “Sounder is within ubuntu infrastructure and is governed by CoC”

    NO IT IS NOT. Sounders is CANCELLED. So it is NOT governed by KCED. I’ve half a mind to just go set up my own Sounders. If I get even a single email asking me to do so, I will.

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