Blog Post

Canonical and Kubuntu

OK, I wasn’t going to do this, you know jump in on all of the “Kubuntu is treated like a second class citizen by Canonical” posts, but I have had enough time to let off some steam, and even joke around a bit with it. So here is my take…

I am actually 50/50 on the entire “2nd class citizen” outtake for a couple of reasons. I would be wholeheartedly into saying that Canonical is indeed treating us Kubuntu people like a second class citizen, but there are factors that permit this feeling.

Factor 1: Would hiring one more developer for Kubuntu really help Kubuntu lose this 2nd class feeling? The answer is simply no. I know some of you just flipped your lid on that one, but it is true. Think about it. If Canonical does decide to hire a second paid Kubuntu developer right now, where would they pull that person from? More than likely from our current pool of community developers. So that means we have 2 faces to Kubuntu from Canonical, that’s pretty much it right now. Another paid developer isn’t going to help us, Kubuntu, from pulling in the slack. There will still be the same exact amount of people working on the project, except instead of one person being paid, we now have two.

As you can see, it is factor 1 that prevents me from saying the whole “we are treated as 2nd class citizens.”

Factor 2: When the Gnome side of our community, whether they are Canonical or not, come up with an idea such as bullet proof x, printer configuration, Compiz support stuff, and so on, they never come to the Kubuntu people and say, “Hey, we are working on project x for Ubuntu and was wondering if you all thought that something like this would be good for Kubuntu, how about lending a developer to the project so we can work side-by-side.” In the past two years of contributing to this project, I can’t think of one time where this has happened. If it did, I never seen it, and the Kubuntu community is about as transparent as they get in terms of communications. This is something that definitely needs to be worked on.

As you can see, it is factor 2 that makes me want to say “yes, we are treated as 2nd class citizens.”

Ooh, damn almost forgot about Factor 3!

Factor 3: Marketing. I am sorry, the type of marketing I have seen coming from this entire community has been lackluster. Ubuntu has some marketing, thanks to all of the websites who “ooh and ahh” over us, but this type of marketing only goes so far. It goes as far as the people who read those websites. Maybe there is marketing going on over in Europe for Ubuntu, but in the states, all I have seen are LoCo teams busting their asses just to hit a very small target. This doesn’t work, and isn’t going to work. Gorilla, grass-roots, word-of-mouth type marketing advances only go so far. Linux has been around now for more than 14 years, but I am willing to place my money that the word “Linux” means absolutely nothing to say, 50% of the Windows users in the world. So that means even less could tell you what “Ubuntu” is. Why is that? Marketing is lackluster. But guess what, it is lackluster for Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Edubuntu, Xubuntu, and anything else you can tie to the front of buntu. So this here makes me think we aren’t such a 2nd class citizen, as our marketing sucks just as much as everyone else.

Damn, I almost published this without Factor 4, and I am free of any type of legal or illegal medication right now 🙂

Factor 4: Kubuntu 8.04 will not be LTS. This screams 3rd class citizen to me honestly. KDE 4 wasn’t the alleged reasoning behind this decision from Canonical. They were uncertain about just how long the KDE community would continue supporting KDE 3. Is this Canonical’s fault though? Yes and no to be honest. Yes, because transparently I never heard of, nor seen, any type of communication from Canonical to KDE asking for explanation. No, because transparently the KDE community never said much about the future support publicly, until after Canonical’s decision. Of course those of us who work with both KDE and Kubuntu already knew that KDE 3 wasn’t going anywhere. I don’t work for Canonical, so what behind the scenes communications they had or didn’t have, I cannot speculate on it, but I will say transparently, the ball was dropped, unfairly.

Like Jono said, “Canonical pays for thousands of free Kubuntu CDs to be produced, all via ShipIt” (notice my link to ShipIt actually goes to Kubuntu ShipIt and not Ubuntu’s ShipIt like Jono did, conspiracy anybody?). 🙂

Kubuntu is extremely glad that Canonical stepped up and offered us this service. It is a wonderful service and we truly are happy to be apart a part of it. Now with that said, seeing as I was once a LoCo team leader, I used to get my typical LoCo team ShipIts. And wouldn’t you know, less than one-fourth were actually Kubuntu. I could go through my emails and give you the exact breakdown, but I don’t need to be that big of an ass 🙂 The Ubuntu Chicago guys will all tell you, Kubuntu CDs were our #1 request. #2, well that was reserved for Xubuntu. People never had to request Ubuntu CDs because we had them falling out of every orifice possible. There is definitely mistreatment here, and it is something I hope gets addressed for the next LoCo ShipIts that go out.

So what have I proven here today? Absolutely nothing! WHAT? Ya, absolutely nothing. We can all sit here and bitch about this in our blogs, on IRC, in email, or whatever communication protocol we can complain on next (anyone up for Skype, Twinkle, Gobby…?) Nothing is getting done in order to fix this “2nd class citizenship” we keep hearing about, for like a year now. If there is a bitch or complaint that is the same for a year, don’t you think it is time our community comes together and attempts to fix this? Gnome vs. KDE, Ubuntu vs. Kubuntu, boohoo this isn’t fair…this shit has to stop, it isn’t healthy, and nothing is being done to fix it.

So what do you propose Mr. Smarty Ass Pants? Simple, why don’t all of us (Canonical, Ubuntu, Kubuntu) sit down and figure out how to work together for a common good. Lets create competition, coopetition, and a much healthier environment, especially if we want to attract new users. Hell, if Microsoft and Apple can do it, then so can we. Who knows, maybe we can truly benefit our upstreams by this, only one way to find out.

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  • Bullet-proof-x is not in KDE due to a limitation in KDM and fallback sessions. My memory tells me that KDM only supports a terminal which is hardcoded in their fallback. GDM is more flexible in that you can define what you want it to fallback to.


    (CTRL F KDM)

  • Bad paste sorry about that. Was reading many things at once.

    The correct link:

  • Last I checked with Kubuntu/KDM and the bulletproof x was that the script for bulletproof x was made apart of GDM, which unless it is removed from GDM and made a desktop independent package, we would have to cherry pick the stuff from GDM and rewrite it for KDM. I will honestly say I am not following it all that much, but have followed the communications that have gone on in #kubuntu-devel as well as the Kubuntu Hardy Catchup blueprint from UDS Boston.

  • eddie

    I don’t know how mouth-to-ear (k|x)ubuntu marketing performs in the USA, but there are a lot of hype here in Europe and people are converting here.

    About the ubuntu vs. kubuntu flame-war, all I can say is that kubuntu is behind ubuntu in features, kde users do feel neglected and they mostly believe it is Canonical’s fault. All the bells and whistles goes to gnome and takes a inordinate amount of time to get ported to KDE. The desktop is good enough to be usable without them and I doubt we really need all those great wizards, we already have plenty of them. But stating that ubuntu and kubuntu are feature paired and/or that the ubuntu project is desktop agnostic (that’s what Jono meant. didn’t he?) is a plain lie and disrespects kubuntu users.

    I don’t get why Canonical has a “community driven” kde distribution anyway. If you have a distribution, you can choose to either maintain and support it or let it rot. The equidistant position is “the distro is not dead, but it is not alive” and misrepresents both the users and the company expectations. It is vey easy to go to a flamewar from there.

  • Anonymous

    > So what have I proven here today? Absolutely nothing!

    You have proven how naive you’re are, eg pretending that community contributors are able to contribute the same time and effort as a payed employee.

  • Coopetition???

    Well said overall, but I have to disagree with your Factor 1 on two counts:
    1) If Canonical hires a dev from the Kubuntu community, the number of devs will not change, but the number of man-hours almost certainly will. Especially if they choose a dev who is currently holding down a full time job elsewhere.
    2) Who says they will hire a dev from the Kubuntu community? If I were in charge of the hiring, I would certainly cast my nets in the direction of Suse and Red Hat devs. That’s a better business decision in more ways than one!

  • … and shouldn’t Firefox be reporting that I’m on *Kubuntu* Linux, instead of Ubuntu Linux? 😉 But that’s just petty.

  • Well, it may be an exception, but Martin “pitti” Pitt has been informing me about the new Jockey Driver Manager (the restricted manager v2) all along and he asked me to port the KDE frontend to it (I wrote the original restricted manager KDE frontend).

    I’m sure more connections like this one can be arranged. My question is: Do we have enough volunteers to accomplish tasks like this? Is there a volunteer coder for every Ubuntu GTK frontend out there?

  • Wolfger: about the business decision: if you hired a SUSE/Red Hat developer, it would be a bad decision, too:

    1. He would know very little about the Kubuntu/Ubuntu structure as a whole, it would take a few weeks to get him up to speed.

    2. If you hired a SUSE developer and said “Hi Kubuntu community, this feller is now a member of the core developer’s team just because we hired him.”, it would be disappointing for several active community members at least.

    3. Every volunteer developer has a dream of being paid for what he does – working on Kubuntu/KDE. If Canonical hired people outside their community only, I’m sure many people would try contributing elsewhere – just because Canonical doesn’t notice them when they help Kubuntu.

    And I’m sure there’s more. You are 100% right that paid people do more work than volunteers – I know that from my own experience. That’s logical – work (school) before hobbies.

  • pirast

    Regarding your first point: A paid person works full time on Kubuntu and not only in some of his free time. So that would change a lot!

  • troll

    What’s wrong about being 2nd class citizen? KDE is worse anyways so it is fitting.

  • alex

    If you don’t set priorities you need double the staff or in other words only get half as far. It doesn’t get simpler really. If you want premium KDE support, I’d suggest switching to a KDE centered distribution. I’m sure the gnome guys there feel exactly like you do.

  • Rob J. Caskey

    Rich, if I was volunteering on something in Gnome, succeeding at doing it, and ready to move on and improve something else in my project, explain why I should take time out to go to say Xubuntu, and duplicate the same thing there instead of continuing on my Gnome project.

    That’s why KDE will _always_ be a second-class citizen unless it becomes apparent that supporting it more will produce more users/customers (which ARE the same thing and why is why Canonical/Ubuntu community are friends).

  • eds

    It’s pretty sad that KDE is in fact a 2nd class citizen for Canonical.

    That’s why I’m never interested in installing Ubuntu/Kubuntu, even though everbody is speaking Ubuntu is the best distro out there. I stick to Debian, the KDE shipped by Debian is excellent!

  • A friend of mine has been using Ubuntu for a while and recently did a fresh install of Kubuntu Gutsy. Apparently we can’t simply connect to WPA protected Wi-Fi networks, while Gnome has such an applet already :/ That does make me feel like a 2nd class citizen, thankfully I personally have no Wireless here!

    Still having the unpatched, XEmbed-incapable Konqueror in the gutsy ISO while the downloadable Flash is 9.0.115 which doesn’t work on an unhacked Konqueror renders Kubuntu Gutsy for the average user unusable.

    Still having the crashing Kopete (it crashed on MSN connections, remember?) is still in the ISO, rendering Kubuntu Gutsy once again an unusable and disappointing distro.

    The last two really should have made for a 7.10.1 bugfix release long ago, but that never happened. Yes, apt-get upgrade might help. dist-upping to Hardy might help. But that doesn’t help the average user who just tried it for the first time.

    Eds: Since Ubuntu uses Debian packages and commits patches back to Debian, chances are you’d be just as fine with Kubuntu as you are with Debian+KDE. Except you’d get a few versions newer packages 😛

  • Bryan

    Ubuntu started linked in time to the releases of Gnome. The entire time schedule was based completely on that.
    This means Ubuntu will ALWAYS integrate better with the newest Gnome then the newest of anything else not following that scheduling.

    Still Kubuntu is not a “second-class” citizen. Saying that implies Kubuntu has less rights then Ubuntu. That just doesn’t make any sense.

    Ubuntu is the top priority for Canonical and I don’t see that changing.

  • Martin “mhb” Böhm

    Henrik: I don’t think you should blame Kubuntu/KDE developers for Adobe Flash not being compatible with the last Flash update. It is closed source and as such, the distributor (Adobe) should care about compatibility, not us. I’m pretty sure once we have a functional Konqueror patch, we’ll backport it. Once Flash is free as in freedom, we’ll make sure it works all the time :o)

    MSN works for me, by the way. Of course, that doesn’t mean it’s working fine for all – but the bug can be overlooked when it doesn’t affect the developers.

  • OK, my point about hiring another developer won’t get us any further simply means our developer community wouldn’t get any larger. We would still have our small group of developers, paid and community who do tend to all work as if they are getting paid. Martin, you work like you are getting paid overtime, so does Tonio, and many others. Sure, hiring one more Kubuntu/KDE dev within Canonical would possibly give us more poll, and possibly a little more work, but it isn’t going to stop there. Canonical seemingly already has their mind made up about Kubuntu/KDE, it has been apparent for well over a year now.

    @Anonymous: I am glad you think I am naive. I mean spending the better part of my time for the last 2 years working on this project, you would think I get it by now. Jeesh.

    @Troll: I knew you would chime in with your well thought out responses as well. Why I haven’t set your IP address as a spammer yet is beyond me.

  • Damn, forgot. The whole point about this post, look at the bottom, Anonymous hinted on it. We aren’t learning anything new with all of this bickering. It is getting neither Ubuntu or Kubuntu anywhere. Everyone needs to sit down and communicate, publicly, each others intentions. Otherwise it will never stop. If Mark doesn’t have the plans he talked about over a year ago about KDE, then let us know now you were full of hot air and help put this whole thing to rest.

    And just so everyone knows, Ubuntu is a community project as well. There are for more community developers on Ubuntu than there are paid developers.

  • Ed Daniel

    I’m sorry to be reading about this, having been pre-occupied with other concerns I feel I’ve come late to the ‘party’ per se.

    I too wish for better co-operation, collaboration and friendly / honorable co-opetition.

    There probably needs to be some weight thrown at helping senior people collaborate better outside of their initial foci – ensuring a means/method/protocol/discipline to support this would be one ambiiton – another continual goal should be to remove duplication of effort while continuing diversity and choice – I’m not referring to the technology anymore – I’m talking about the management teams of Gnome, KDE and others working together more frequently so that they can get more done – I’m not suggesting mergers or asking people to give up their role because someone else can take on that responsibility – I’m asking, for example, that marketing people in Ubuntu, KDE, Gnome and other related projects to work as a single unit with a transparent model that helps them support each others endeavours, lend a hand when one side would appreciate support, notify (as mentioned above) teams of plans and request input/feedback but above all – act in unison – united you’ll be stronger, what are your common goals and do projects between teams exist, function and deliver results, if not, why not?

    If you remain divided you are very much weaker and open to attack from the usual suspects 😉

    Morale is important too, if one perpetuates a myth or does not have ability to get a good enough explanation for the way things are then speculation can lead to assumption – being the MOAF. Let’s not let this debate dent or damage the morale of a great effect all the people that contribute to these projects are having on the world at large – you’re a pioneer of 21st century freedom, along with many others, in the nascent digital age – there’s still a lot of ground to cover but we all know why this is good for us and in ending I’d like to share one caveat: we must not let the people/corps of yesterday exploit these issues for their own advantage.

    That’s my 2c. Hope it makes sense.

  • I can’t tell Canonical what to do, but I can make observations.

    I observe that Ubuntu is becoming the de-facto Linux distribution. As time goes on, it is possible that Ubuntu will become the de-facto operating system. I know that if hundreds of millions of people are using your operating system, then there is a lot of money to be made. We are talking about billions of dollars a year.

    This means that Canonical has the potential to make a lot of money on Ubuntu. Why they are skimping on developers makes no sense to me. Yes, there is risk involved but that is part of doing business and investing.

    Should these be KDE or GNOME developers? I think they should listen to what their customers are asking for. If in doubt, hedge your bets by supporting both. I think this must be Canonical’s strategy with Kubuntu.

  • Chxta

    We spend too much time in unnecessary arguments…

  • As a former Canonical employee, I can tell you that KDE was never a “second class citizen” inside Canonical, but generally not most developers first choice of platform.

    That makes a huge difference. When all the people testing and reporting the bugs are all running Gnome, then KDE will get forgotten about despite the best intentions of others. Maybe KDE-4 will change that and entice more devs to use that instead. Maybe not, who knows? But my experience with Kubuntu users was often getting emails saying that we hadn’t checked with them on things and that by the time the beta came out it was too late to change things. And for the most part, that’s right! Even as a community member now, I’m running the development release from the first day that it’s out in order to contribute effecitvely. And when there’s bugs, I fix them. When there are new pieces needed, I write them.

    Given the size of the KDE community out there, I’d expect there to be more hackers out there willing to make sure that their own systems were running the way they want them to. The fact that there isn’t to me points to that community needing to do internal promotion rather than placing the onus on others.

    Jeff Bailey

  • jldugger

    Advertising is not marketing, but I respectfully disagree that grassroots is no longer effective. Let me give you an example where Canonical leadership has taken an important and great step: the color scheme. A few people moan about Ubuntu’s orange theme, but the truth is, it’s unique, and that branding counts for a hell of a lot. Suddenly every screenshot reveals whether it was taken on Ubuntu or yet another Clearlooks distro. It’s not just a screenshot of Linux running on a PS3, it’s a screenshot of Ubuntu. In a perverse way, the fact that the color’s slightly controversial means early adopters are more likely to hear about it by way of complaints.

    Marketing is things like deciding it’s time to cater to engineers and other technical professions who might prefer Ubuntu if only their apps were better supported within Ubuntu, and then deciding to allocate resources to those features to better suit your “market”. Fedora did that recently, and I admit I’m a bit envious. I constantly run into EEs who ask me for an open alternative to Cadence or Pspice and the reply is only very slowly getting better that I can see. Advertising is simply taking what you have and telling people about it.

    It’s trivially easy to notice that KDE is a second class citizen: rather than a single install CD with a choice, there are two, one for GNOME and one for Kubuntu. A first class citizen would either have negotiated a name change for the GNOME version or found their way onto that CD.

  • Mic

    You’ve chosen to use a distro that officially supports GNOME and hopes that the distro officially provides equal support for your other favourite desktop manager, etc.

    So, Ubuntu should make KDE/XFCE/Fluxbox/** users NOT feel like 2nd class citizens. Do you think any company will have or willing to provide such resources?

    Let’s be realistic!

    Prefer KDE? Try Mepis, PCLinuxOS, openSUSE (though it looks like a GNOME centric distro soon) or even Slackware.

    Linux is about choices. You can always choose a different distro if this doesn’t fit your ideal situation.

    In case, someone wants to start a flamewar; I am using Debian with KDE 🙂

  • Do you honestly think that Kubuntu 8.04 /should/ be LTS!?

    In my humble opinion, but the time KDE 4.2 and later is released, no one would want to use KDE 4.0 and older any more. I honestly don’t think the average KDE user (even enterprise KDE user) would actually require Kubuntu 8.04 to be a long term support version.

  • Yes I do think Kubuntu 8.04 should be LTS. One thing to remember is that Kubuntu 8.04 isn’t only KDE 4. There is also the stable KDE 3.5.x release which is still in main and not going anywhere soon. As a matter of fact, we have KDE 3.5.9 coming out this month. People aren’t going to be choosing KDE 4 for a stable environment right now and will elect to use KDE 3 for some time to come.

    One thing people don’t get, is when a bug is introduced or a security issue is introduced, it isn’t Ubuntu fixing those bugs or security issues, it is upstream. The most involved one might have to get is cherry picking out the source in order to create a patch for Ubuntu, but the work isn’t that hard. Been doing it for more than 2 years now, and not one time have I had anything that took more than a few hours.

    Plus, we have other major distros which aren’t dropping KDE 3 and KDE themselves aren’t dropping KDE 3. Hell, you can scour the changes in KDE svn and see that the KDE 2 branch only stopped receiving support a few years back, well after KDE 3 was released in 2001/2002.

  • Pingback: Chiarimento su Ubuntu, KDE e Bullet Proof X « pollycoke :)()

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  • Daniel

    The 2 distributions are very different often there were tools i wanted from Kubuntu in ubuntu, like the displayconfig that arrived in ubuntu recently, before that it looked so much easier (and i think still is more polished) to setup multiple monitors in kubuntu. There were other examples I’m sure (tho i can’t think of any off the top of my head) and I’m pleased ubuntu(/gnome) have been filling some of the gaps in there tools. (unfortunatly some have been removed as well while i’ve been using ubuntu like the grub boot manager tool). The point I’m getting to is that the 2 distributions have different strengths and there are still some places where KDE’s tools outshine GNOME’s.
    If you feel like a 2nd class citizen spare a thought for xubuntu, I’ve often tried it over the years on slightly older computers and though there are a few people doing a really good voluntry job of updating it often it seems as if it takes all there man power to re-package upstreams’s sources. Really wish this was better supported as well but I know they will inherit alot from ubuntu and if ubuntu gets more popular it’ll raise awareness of it’s derivatives.
    It’s a fine line for cannonical, if they spend too much time on ubuntu’s derivatives and end up with a few average operating systems instead of one really great one and as a result struggle to keep going it won’t help ubuntu or kubuntu in the long term. Supporting ubuntu’s derivatives though brings in people who may not have contributed or used ubuntu/linux/etc.
    Just some thoughts, feel free to discuss. (but please keep it mature, no one wants a flame war I’m sure)

  • Serg

    @ troll (07:44:58) :

    > What’s wrong about being 2nd class citizen? KDE is worse anyways so it is
    > fitting.

    I can bet that the person who wrote that knows nothing about KDE, it’s background technologies, possibilities and limitations. I can bet that he knows nothing from the counted above about Gnome.
    I’m pretty sure that the person who wrote this is not a developer or even not a IT person.
    Man have you tries to develop any Gnome app? Have you tried to develop any KDE app? Are you sure you know what are you talking about? How you can know what is better?

    I don’t like writing comments to posts like this. But just want to say that people like should sit quietly and try to learn to respect work and feelings of other people.

    I have never used neither Kubuntu, nor Ubuntu. But I do respect work and feelings of both communities. That is why I will never allow myself to write something like this.

    I am a software developer but in the company I currently work we develop mostly on and for Windows. But I worked for years with Linux on my previous place of work. And when people ask me about Gnome and KDE (especially Windows people) I try to explain briefly key differences in technologies of Gnome and KDE. But I never tell “something sucks because I used other thing and I think it is better”.

    So first teach to respect other people and second learn more about Gnome and KDE to know what you are talking about.

  • Rad

    @ Jeff Bailey

    >As a former Canonical employee, I can tell you that KDE was nevera
    >“second class citizen” inside Canonical, but generally not most
    > developers first choice of platform.

    I am a software developer and currently I am developing on Windows and for Windows. It is not because I choose this but because I am getting payed for this. You, as any other employee will work on the platform defined by the company. Because it is your job and you get money for this.

    I am not trying to blame anyone. But please don’t tell me things like “platform of choice” when it comes to the payed job. Do you seriously anybody believes that?

  • Nathan Dbb

    STABILITY !!!!!!!

    Ubuntu is the product that Canonical hopes to make money on and KDE has never had the stability that Gnome has had. KDE on every distribution that I used would become unstable after a few days of use and a dozen suspend/resume cycles.

    I love KDE applications, as it is OK if an application crashes every few days, but KDE desktop is a product that few would buy. It is only as stable as Microsoft Windows, but it does not bring the conveyance of the dominate platform. With the KDE 3 -> 4 transition, the stability situation is just going to be worse.

    KDE people should be happy that they are given a stable and up-to-date platform on which their applications can shine. KDE apps are the best, but they are never as stable as their feature-poor Gnome counterparts.

    Why is this holy war still going on? We Linux users enjoy TWO GUI teams that are fighting for our attention.

    Be happy, KDE has the most feature-filled apps!
    Be happy, Ubuntu is the #1 Linux!
    Be happy, Kubuntu disks are free!

    If you have full Ubuntu and kde-desktop installed what do you get listed as in these comments?

  • Jonas

    @Nathan Dbb,

    Are you sure you know what you are talking about…? As long as you are running the stable version of Gnome and KDE respectively, both are as stable as anyone could wish for.

    I’ve never had either to crash on me inexplicably. Certain apps, yes, but never the DE as a whole. I still try to stay away from Gnome as far as possible, but that’s just a personal preference based on its behavior, looks, and what not. It’s just not for me, but if it had been that much more stable as you imply I might have been forced to use it anyway. But as you can see, I haven’t. The DE is stable as a rock, and just about every app I use is written with KDE in mind.

    But you’re right in that KDE 4 for the time being will not be as stable as the current version of Gnome and KDE 3.5.x. Then again, it doesn’t have to be. Neither Gnome or KDE 3 is going anywhere, and KDE 4 will eventually be ready to take over from KDE 3.x.

    And I hope Gnome will continue to do well as well. Some healthy competition is always good 🙂

  • Gary M

    Everyone save yourselves…switch to Slackware as soon as 12.1 comes out for a real KDE experience.

    KDE is #1 in Slackware–not a second class citizen.

  • Bruneux

    “…we are never going to be equal – we have less developers and marketing than Ubuntu does.”

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